Probably no one on earth, barring maybe a few indigenous Australians, lives on land that was not “stolen” from someone else. We stole the Lakotas land? Well they stole it from the Cheyenne, who stole it from the Kiowa, so not sure where they get off being upset that they got the same treatment they gave others. This is the entire history of human civilization, one group migrating and invading another group and the stronger group prevails. Not sure why America is somehow uniquely guilty here.
Also, land acknowledgments without giving the land back just seem more insulting than anything. It’s like saying, “yes, I acknowledge I stole your land, and no, I’m not going to do anything about it but rub it in your face”.
Seems to me if you think you stole something, you have a moral obligation to give it back. And yet I don’t see, say, deep blue New York offering to give Manhattan back to the Native Americans. It is just performative virtue signaling, like so much on the left.
Over 90% of that was the unintentional spread of germs from Europe to which that they had no resistance. Simple dogmas and Manichaean thinking don’t explain anything.
The Ithaca City School District Board of Education unanimously voted to permit the flying of the Haudenosaunee (Hood-en-no-sho-nee) flag at Ithaca High School . "This significant decision reflects the district’s commitment to reversing the legacy of racism and establishing communities built on love and joy." https://www.ithacacityschools.org/article/1358967 I am in favor of divestment, decolonization, and of giving the schools and the land they sit on back to the Haudenosaunee. The Haudenosaunee will then be responsible for paying the teachers and covering the other expenses of the school. The taxpayers of Ithaca will no longer have to pay school taxes for indoctrination, and the Haudenosaunee can collect fees from anyone who wants to still go to the school.
Permitting a school to fly a particular flag, by local ordinance, seems pretty good to me. It seems to be a free-expression, local-school-rule, citizen-initiative act. The local ordinance sounds like it's been squared with state laws or other customs for flying flags. I noticed recently in France that the French Flag, the local city flag, and the EU flag all were flown with equal prominence and thought of how in the US, by custom or law, the US flag (stars and stripes) is given priority (e.g. is flown higher than any others accompanying it). I admit that when I see the stars and stripes next to the stars and bars, I get squeamish, but when I see POW/MIA flags, I think, "If it pleases you...fine with me." The late historian David McCullough in 1993 responded extemporaneously about the flying of the Confederate flag over southern state capitals. It's funny how after he handles that question (very well, I think), he begs for just one more question so the event doesn't end on that hot topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufvOFyusMnE&t=6s
I am not complaining with regards to free expression...I think that the school board did not go far enough--they should have given the whole property, school and all, to the Haudenosaunee--in the same way that all those who are calling for decolonization are giving their own homes and the properties they sit on back to Indigenous Peoples.
I admit that I cannot discern if your proposal is genuine or facetious. Sometimes a person says, "If you're so concerned about the US national debt, why don't you voluntarily pay more federal taxes? There's even a line on the 1040 for that purpose." Would ceding the school to the Haudenosaunee be similar, or is it a viable possibility for making a difference in Ithaca? I tried to find out, but didn't. https://www.haudenosauneeconfederacy.com/land-aquisition/ If it's a genuine proposal, I guess flying the flag is a first step in the process.
In all likelihood the Native Americans found by the settlers were settler colonialists who had taken the land rights away from weaker tribes who came before. Theres no logical end to this self-flagellation.
Such "whataboutism" is not a valid argument. The fact is that European colonists committed genocide against the natives. It's not necessary to deny this history to be opposed to reparations and land acknowledgments.
Imagine the legal difficulties of determining rightful owners of land, since the natives were constantly contesting that with tremendous violence themselves. To read a work like this”Empire of the Summer Moon” is to understand the very deep and stark complexities of what occurred during the periods of Western expansion. A clash of cultures. Yes, some pioneer rashness and downright stupidity, but Comanche tactics that were so brutal that one can imagine why Americans responded the way that they did: violent justice.
Interesting take Dorian, and pretty thoroughly argued and documented. The sentence "Non-indigenous landowners living in those areas today must pay reparations or return the land to the descendants of inhabitants who predated the arrival of 'white people.' " a notable counter example, in my interpretation. The documents cited in that paragraph do not support the "must" claim regarding reparations or return of land.
I expect performative recitations of land acknowledgments to fade to zero or to a perfunctory, "We acknowledge people came before us, both intellectually and geographically" or something like that. The 150-word acknowledgment in one of the cited examples (https://uhighmidway.com/11937/briefs/statement-acknowledges-indigenous-land-sets-example/) is too long to read verbatim before every class, every faculty meeting, every conference, every mandatory daily morning calisthenics on the campus quad (what? they don't do that at U Chicago?!).
When you get right down to it, there really is no such thing as a "native American" since everyone here is a descendant from someone who came from elsewhere. So ultimately, who gets reparations? Dinosaurs?
Both sides committed atrocities. It was a war, and the Indians lost. That's because the Europeans were an advanced culture, and the Indians were a stone-age culture without even the wheel.
The Indians lost because their culture was far behind the Europeans.
You call yourself "truth hurts" but you have no idea what the "truth" is.
Very well said Dorian! The reality is that "accounting" that the proponents of land back are demanding would be vastly different if applied uniformly to "Native" American populations in the same standard as applied to the descendants of European immigrants to the Americas. If occupation of "stolen" land requires reparations/repatriation...then pretty much EVERY "Native" American group would be required to pay reparations as well. As descendants of Northeast Asian immigrants to the Americas, "Native" Americans hold NO special status. (Similarly imagine how many wars would arise in the Eurasia and Africa if this same concept were applied?)
I am being facetious. But I would be happy to see the schools go into different hands. I have read the goals and programs of the ICSD on their website, and believe that I see why students grow up here without much ability to think (although they are great test takers). I also recently had the opportunity to read the Next Generation Science Standards that came out in 2013. These standards present facts as things to be memorized for the test without any questioning and without any connections to the theories, which are presented as fact without any questioning. (Have you noticed that your students are not as good as they used to be?) I am ready to write off the public school system, something that I used to believe in wholeheartedly (in fact any paper I published, I sent to Ted Kennedy thanking him for his support of the public school system, of which I am a product. But now I see it as something that does too much hard relative to the good.
It's ludicrous to deny that land was stolen from the natives or that a wide-scale genocide occurred. To find specific examples of wartime atrocities against the colonists (or violence between tribes) doesn't change the overarching truth. It was a shameful time in which not only millions of natives were killed but also their cultures and languages were extinguished.
The history isn't debatable -- but the response to it is. I would agree that the time has long passed to undo those wrongs. I certainly do not support being forced to pay for the sins of our great=grandfathers. Ditto with paying reparations for slavery.
Making an argument against reparations doesn't requiring denying reality. Our ancestors weren't perfect but we can address that by striving to "form a more perfect Union."
The period 1610-1850 involved a war between Indians and Europeans. The Europeans were an advanced civilization. The Indians were stone-age without the wheel, written language, or in many cases permanent buildings.
The Indians lost because they had a primitive culture.
It is by trading arguments with each other that scientists discover truths., such as that the Earth orbits the sun and not vice versa. It is by making pontifications that pseudoscientists feign discovery of truths without actually doing so. The proposition that the Sun orbits the Earth is an example of a pontification. This pontification was issued by the Vatican in its dispute with Galileo.
This is a great essay. As someone of indigenous/aboriginal/autochthonous heritage, I really sort of wonder about these "land appropriation acknowledgements". Because almost every square inch of territory on earth has changed hands many, many times, this irredentist nonsense strikes me as completely vacuous and pointless and a waste of everyone's time.
I am even more concerned by the efforts of assorted white liberal elite social justice warrior-types to replace conventional STEM with "alternative indigenous ways of knowing". I am working on a draft of some of my ideas on this topic, which when it is suitably developed, I might send to Dorian for consideration for posting on Heterodox STEM.
I am not sure how these characters square their ideas about "cultural appropriation" with replacing STEM with ideas appropriated/stolen from indigenous cultures. But the woke have never been known for deep thought, particularly.
A friend who is an emeritus professor of computer science had some "native" or "First Nations" students in his classes. He asked them if they were interested in this crazy fad to teach indigenous science. The native kids all said, "Hell no, we want to get jobs". This is just insane BS pushed by pretentious white do-gooders with some racist fantasies about the "noble savages", an echo of previous similar racist ideas that date back centuries.
Probably no one on earth, barring maybe a few indigenous Australians, lives on land that was not “stolen” from someone else. We stole the Lakotas land? Well they stole it from the Cheyenne, who stole it from the Kiowa, so not sure where they get off being upset that they got the same treatment they gave others. This is the entire history of human civilization, one group migrating and invading another group and the stronger group prevails. Not sure why America is somehow uniquely guilty here.
Also, land acknowledgments without giving the land back just seem more insulting than anything. It’s like saying, “yes, I acknowledge I stole your land, and no, I’m not going to do anything about it but rub it in your face”.
Seems to me if you think you stole something, you have a moral obligation to give it back. And yet I don’t see, say, deep blue New York offering to give Manhattan back to the Native Americans. It is just performative virtue signaling, like so much on the left.
A great example of "whataboutism"... What you describe in no way excuses the genocide of the natives by Europeans.
"whataboutism" is a platitude used by shallow thinkers.
Law and justice demand consistency in the pursuit of fairness.
Over 90% of that was the unintentional spread of germs from Europe to which that they had no resistance. Simple dogmas and Manichaean thinking don’t explain anything.
The Ithaca City School District Board of Education unanimously voted to permit the flying of the Haudenosaunee (Hood-en-no-sho-nee) flag at Ithaca High School . "This significant decision reflects the district’s commitment to reversing the legacy of racism and establishing communities built on love and joy." https://www.ithacacityschools.org/article/1358967 I am in favor of divestment, decolonization, and of giving the schools and the land they sit on back to the Haudenosaunee. The Haudenosaunee will then be responsible for paying the teachers and covering the other expenses of the school. The taxpayers of Ithaca will no longer have to pay school taxes for indoctrination, and the Haudenosaunee can collect fees from anyone who wants to still go to the school.
Permitting a school to fly a particular flag, by local ordinance, seems pretty good to me. It seems to be a free-expression, local-school-rule, citizen-initiative act. The local ordinance sounds like it's been squared with state laws or other customs for flying flags. I noticed recently in France that the French Flag, the local city flag, and the EU flag all were flown with equal prominence and thought of how in the US, by custom or law, the US flag (stars and stripes) is given priority (e.g. is flown higher than any others accompanying it). I admit that when I see the stars and stripes next to the stars and bars, I get squeamish, but when I see POW/MIA flags, I think, "If it pleases you...fine with me." The late historian David McCullough in 1993 responded extemporaneously about the flying of the Confederate flag over southern state capitals. It's funny how after he handles that question (very well, I think), he begs for just one more question so the event doesn't end on that hot topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufvOFyusMnE&t=6s
Dear Peter,
I am not complaining with regards to free expression...I think that the school board did not go far enough--they should have given the whole property, school and all, to the Haudenosaunee--in the same way that all those who are calling for decolonization are giving their own homes and the properties they sit on back to Indigenous Peoples.
Dear Randy,
I admit that I cannot discern if your proposal is genuine or facetious. Sometimes a person says, "If you're so concerned about the US national debt, why don't you voluntarily pay more federal taxes? There's even a line on the 1040 for that purpose." Would ceding the school to the Haudenosaunee be similar, or is it a viable possibility for making a difference in Ithaca? I tried to find out, but didn't. https://www.haudenosauneeconfederacy.com/land-aquisition/ If it's a genuine proposal, I guess flying the flag is a first step in the process.
Email me if you prefer. - Peter
He’s clearly being facetious.
In all likelihood the Native Americans found by the settlers were settler colonialists who had taken the land rights away from weaker tribes who came before. Theres no logical end to this self-flagellation.
Such "whataboutism" is not a valid argument. The fact is that European colonists committed genocide against the natives. It's not necessary to deny this history to be opposed to reparations and land acknowledgments.
"whataboutism" is a platitude used by shallow thinkers.
Law and justice demand consistency in the pursuit of fairness.
Imagine the legal difficulties of determining rightful owners of land, since the natives were constantly contesting that with tremendous violence themselves. To read a work like this”Empire of the Summer Moon” is to understand the very deep and stark complexities of what occurred during the periods of Western expansion. A clash of cultures. Yes, some pioneer rashness and downright stupidity, but Comanche tactics that were so brutal that one can imagine why Americans responded the way that they did: violent justice.
https://bprice.substack.com/p/land-acknowledgment-paris-france#:~:text=Today%2C%20we%20gather%20in%20what,they%20lived%2010%2C000%20years%20ago.
Interesting take Dorian, and pretty thoroughly argued and documented. The sentence "Non-indigenous landowners living in those areas today must pay reparations or return the land to the descendants of inhabitants who predated the arrival of 'white people.' " a notable counter example, in my interpretation. The documents cited in that paragraph do not support the "must" claim regarding reparations or return of land.
I expect performative recitations of land acknowledgments to fade to zero or to a perfunctory, "We acknowledge people came before us, both intellectually and geographically" or something like that. The 150-word acknowledgment in one of the cited examples (https://uhighmidway.com/11937/briefs/statement-acknowledges-indigenous-land-sets-example/) is too long to read verbatim before every class, every faculty meeting, every conference, every mandatory daily morning calisthenics on the campus quad (what? they don't do that at U Chicago?!).
When you get right down to it, there really is no such thing as a "native American" since everyone here is a descendant from someone who came from elsewhere. So ultimately, who gets reparations? Dinosaurs?
100%
Small Pox viruses were just recolonizing their land, man!
Does your "argument" have any relevance to the fact that Europeans committed genocide against native Americans? No.
I agree that reparations and land acknowledgements are dumb but let's not deny reality/history.
Both sides committed atrocities. It was a war, and the Indians lost. That's because the Europeans were an advanced culture, and the Indians were a stone-age culture without even the wheel.
The Indians lost because their culture was far behind the Europeans.
You call yourself "truth hurts" but you have no idea what the "truth" is.
“… let's not deny reality/history.”
Which is never as simple as you insist on portraying it.
Spam.
Very well said Dorian! The reality is that "accounting" that the proponents of land back are demanding would be vastly different if applied uniformly to "Native" American populations in the same standard as applied to the descendants of European immigrants to the Americas. If occupation of "stolen" land requires reparations/repatriation...then pretty much EVERY "Native" American group would be required to pay reparations as well. As descendants of Northeast Asian immigrants to the Americas, "Native" Americans hold NO special status. (Similarly imagine how many wars would arise in the Eurasia and Africa if this same concept were applied?)
Dear Peter,
I am being facetious. But I would be happy to see the schools go into different hands. I have read the goals and programs of the ICSD on their website, and believe that I see why students grow up here without much ability to think (although they are great test takers). I also recently had the opportunity to read the Next Generation Science Standards that came out in 2013. These standards present facts as things to be memorized for the test without any questioning and without any connections to the theories, which are presented as fact without any questioning. (Have you noticed that your students are not as good as they used to be?) I am ready to write off the public school system, something that I used to believe in wholeheartedly (in fact any paper I published, I sent to Ted Kennedy thanking him for his support of the public school system, of which I am a product. But now I see it as something that does too much hard relative to the good.
It's ludicrous to deny that land was stolen from the natives or that a wide-scale genocide occurred. To find specific examples of wartime atrocities against the colonists (or violence between tribes) doesn't change the overarching truth. It was a shameful time in which not only millions of natives were killed but also their cultures and languages were extinguished.
The history isn't debatable -- but the response to it is. I would agree that the time has long passed to undo those wrongs. I certainly do not support being forced to pay for the sins of our great=grandfathers. Ditto with paying reparations for slavery.
Making an argument against reparations doesn't requiring denying reality. Our ancestors weren't perfect but we can address that by striving to "form a more perfect Union."
What is ludicrous is to assert that genocide and land theft occurred. The land was conquered, not stolen, in wars, not genocide.
The period 1610-1850 involved a war between Indians and Europeans. The Europeans were an advanced civilization. The Indians were stone-age without the wheel, written language, or in many cases permanent buildings.
The Indians lost because they had a primitive culture.
No one should pay reparations.
It is by trading arguments with each other that scientists discover truths., such as that the Earth orbits the sun and not vice versa. It is by making pontifications that pseudoscientists feign discovery of truths without actually doing so. The proposition that the Sun orbits the Earth is an example of a pontification. This pontification was issued by the Vatican in its dispute with Galileo.
But, but, but…”Other ways of knowing” ( AKA magic ) are totally valid!
🙄🥸
This is a great essay. As someone of indigenous/aboriginal/autochthonous heritage, I really sort of wonder about these "land appropriation acknowledgements". Because almost every square inch of territory on earth has changed hands many, many times, this irredentist nonsense strikes me as completely vacuous and pointless and a waste of everyone's time.
I am even more concerned by the efforts of assorted white liberal elite social justice warrior-types to replace conventional STEM with "alternative indigenous ways of knowing". I am working on a draft of some of my ideas on this topic, which when it is suitably developed, I might send to Dorian for consideration for posting on Heterodox STEM.
I am not sure how these characters square their ideas about "cultural appropriation" with replacing STEM with ideas appropriated/stolen from indigenous cultures. But the woke have never been known for deep thought, particularly.
A friend who is an emeritus professor of computer science had some "native" or "First Nations" students in his classes. He asked them if they were interested in this crazy fad to teach indigenous science. The native kids all said, "Hell no, we want to get jobs". This is just insane BS pushed by pretentious white do-gooders with some racist fantasies about the "noble savages", an echo of previous similar racist ideas that date back centuries.
Good piece.